Thoughts on Jim Sterlings video about Advertisements in games?

[Odyssey]

Games are now costing the same amount of money as blockbuster movies. Difference is that huge numbers of people are paying £10 or whatever to see that movie, then you have the DVD\Blu-Ray sales, then you have the TV royalties when it starts to run there. With games you have a much smaller number of people buying them, and there's no real additional markets. The additional market is parasitic game-shops re-selling second hand games for £1.99 less than brand new copies and none of that money goes to the developer. The game shop will same the same game 5 times, get £250 in their tills yet the people that spent the money making it only get paid for one copy.

Thats one of the dumbest postings I read here. So you are part of the problem here. You defend a greedy industry, which dont give a damn about their customers. So back to topic. The game market is way larger then the movie or music market. There never ever before were so much gamers out there as now (only during the early 1980s the video game market was even larger then the movie and music market combined - but thats a different story). Game development on the other hand became incredible cheap. Gone are the days when software developers build their game form the first to the last byte. Searched through photos to get the perfect texture for their objects. Nowadays game developers actually doing virtually nothing beside using prebuild modules together. They are using third party game engines, third party middleware and third party texure packs. That decreases the cost of game development drastically.

But here we are in the real world. Where you need a lot of marketing budget to sell sh*t (like most recent AAA "games" - thos arent games anymore, they are mainly money trancaction tools). And on the other side are greedy investors which could invest their money anywhere. And if they going to invest money into a AAA game project they wont back way more money the even 5 years ago. And here we are with the real reason for greedy game companies and greedy CEOs. Greedy investors and an exploding marketing budget for sh*tty games.

So, sorry to take away your "bad used games market and horrible game development costs" urban legend. But someone had to do that!

And BTW So you really want that you shouldnt be able anymore to sell your property whenever you like? The movie market doesnt have the smallest problem with that. Nor the music market. There are millions of movies sold as used at platforms like eBay. So whats your problem? Do you hate other peoples property?

[Aidy]

Game development never was this cheap as today. Companies mainly use middleware or third party engine.

It's true that there are some off-the-shelf products that greatly reduce the effort in producing a game, all that happens is that effort is put elsewhere rather than being reduced. So people can buy graphics engines, physics engines etc, but AAA titles require a lot of effort elsewhere such as the writing, the graphics, the sound, any voice acting that is needed, motion-capture etc, and while the basics can be covered by game engines there is often still bespoke coding that needs done to run your game.

There's not much point in arguing about it, it's not my opinion, it is a fact that people are spending more on AAA games than the have in the past. I think what you and others are arguing is not that games *do* cost more, but that they don't *need* to cost more. You'll lose either argument I'm afraid.

Whats expensive is horrible marketing costs which exists cause they games are pure trash.

Marketing has also gone up yes, but the cost the actual development is going up too. When I say games cost more to make, I am not factoring in the marketing costs, only the development costs.

And what also really exists are investors which like to get a higher and higher profit marge for their money.

Could you tell us how the profit margins have increased? eg what were they 10 years ago and what they are today?

Thats one of the dumbest postings I read here.

I see you don't read your own posts then

which dont give a damn about their customers.

I doubt that, there is a lot of evidence out there from big software houses that the developers do care about the game and the customer. You're simply posting a lot of personal opinions and bias but representing it as fact.

The game market is way larger then the movie or music market.

How many people watch movies worldwide vs the number that play games?

There never ever before were so much gamers out there as now

True, the numbers keep going up, especially when you factor in mobile games etc. Now even bored housewives are "gamers", not just basement dwelling neckbeards

Game development on the other hand became incredible cheap.

The people who spent scores of millions developing games will probably disagree, but I covered these points above so I won't repeat myself.

They are using third party game engines, third party middleware and third party texure packs.

That must be why GTA V, Assassin's Creed Origins\Odyssey, Witcher 3, Fallout 4 and Forza all look the same and play the same, have the same characters, same character animations, same voices and so on.

So, sorry to take away your "bad used games market and horrible game development costs" urban legend. But someone had to do that!

You didn't, you simply gave us your uninformed opinions but presented them as fact. Sorry but you're going to need more than that to convince me.

And BTW So you really want that you shouldnt be able anymore to sell your property whenever you like? The movie market doesnt have the smallest problem with that. Nor the music market.

It's a tricky one, but the thing about games is that the price you pay isn't reflective of what the physical part of the medium is. That game case and disc probably cost 20p, but they sell it for £40-£50. You're not really paying for the physical product, you're paying for the effort that went into it. It's less of an issue for movies and music cds because they're traditionally much cheaper in the first place so there is less of a market for secondary movies etc. I can buy most movies in the shop for £10, it's not a lot and even if you were to sell me the same movie second hand for £5 I'd probably rather pay the £10 and get brand new. Games cost a lot more though, especially recent releases, so there is far more motivation to turn to the second hand market.

Do you hate other peoples property?

No I don't, but from your rants above it seems you hate the fact that people make money. Why do you hate other people's money?

[Odyssey]

It's true that there are some off-the-shelf products that greatly reduce the effort in producing a game, all that happens is that effort is put elsewhere rather than being reduced. So people can buy graphics engines, physics engines etc, but AAA titles require a lot of effort elsewhere such as the writing, the graphics, the sound, any voice acting that is needed, motion-capture etc, and while the basics can be covered by game engines there is often still bespoke coding that needs done to run your game.

There's not much point in arguing about it, it's not my opinion, it is a fact that people are spending more on AAA games than the have in the past. I think what you and others are arguing is not that games *do* cost more, but that they don't *need* to cost more. You'll lose either argument I'm afraid.

There is no optimizing anymore when you use for example the Unreal Engine. You use it as a library within your source and then call the according graphics function with the correct parameters. A ten year old child with a one week development education could do that correctly.

That didnt exist before the Playstation 2 (thats when the usage of middleware became dominant). And it saves a lot of money and developing time. So this isnt anymore "The developers trying to squeezing out a few more fps from their game engine which takes a lot of money and time on that complex hardware". No its a function call with the parameters defined by your models.

So yes, development cost has gone down extremely. But the games became larger and the scenes looking better. Thats why you need more graphics staff. But on the other side you are selling way more games for a way higher price tag then even a decade ago. So you pay way less for every license you sell then ever before.

Marketing has also gone up yes, but the cost the actual development is going up too. When I say games cost more to make, I am not factoring in the marketing costs, only the development costs.

Marketing is at more then fifty percent of the complete game production cost. Thats horrible. And thats the main reason for larger game budgets.

Could you tell us how the profit margins have increased? eg what were they 10 years ago and what they are today?

So you havent read stock news the last years? But instead all the whining at "gaming" sites which repeat the sme stupid urban legends again and again. Investors are able to choose where they put there money. Thats also the problem big movie companies face. They only get money for their projects at investors meetings if they could promise higher profit margins. Thats also the reason why having small profit margins (like Superman vs. Batman at the movies industry or recent Sega games) are counting as a failure. Cause they will lose investors for future projects.

Im happy that I could make you familiar with how the game and movie industry works today. If you are interested in further details read the interviews about the making of "Lincoln" at YouTube (and how it was almost stopped, cause the investors havent seen a global selling point).

I doubt that, there is a lot of evidence out there from big software houses that the developers do care about the game and the customer. You're simply posting a lot of personal opinions and bias but representing it as fact.

I see. Thats why Blizzard closed their support department and outsourced it. Cause .... they care! Thats why developers at EA and at Bethesda keep insulting their customers. Cause .... they care! But I dont want you leave your bubble. Stay there. Its surely comfortable within it.

How many people watch movies worldwide vs the number that play games?

Just a small guess. I guess that the numbers of customers arent that important for investors as the number of dollars? But who knows . BTW https://newzoo.com/insights/articles...mes-take-half/

True, the numbers keep going up, especially when you factor in mobile games etc. Now even bored housewives are "gamers", not just basement dwelling neckbeards

Again: https://newzoo.com/insights/articles...mes-take-half/

That must be why GTA V, Assassin's Creed Origins\Odyssey, Witcher 3, Fallout 4 and Forza all look the same and play the same, have the same characters, same character animations, same voices and so on.

I see. So using a third party engine allows only one model structure and one kind of textures! Its not the purpose of such a engine to be used freely with any kind of project. Nope, everythig looks the same, cause there is only one function call which allows only one boolean parameter .

t's a tricky one, but the thing about games is that the price you pay isn't reflective of what the physical part of the medium is. That game case and disc probably cost 20p, but they sell it for £40-£50. You're not really paying for the physical product, you're paying for the effort that went into it. It's less of an issue for movies and music cds because they're traditionally much cheaper in the first place so there is less of a market for secondary movies etc. I can buy most movies in the shop for £10, it's not a lot and even if you were to sell me the same movie second hand for £5 I'd probably rather pay the £10 and get brand new. Games cost a lot more though, especially recent releases, so there is far more motivation to turn to the second hand market.

New BluRays are at appr. UK £ 20. At best. And even then many people still buy their movies used at eBay. Games are at appr. UK £ 50-60 at release. So you are stating that selling your property is much of a problem, cause at the same time game companies are dumping their prices to the same UK £ 10-20 at sales at online stores for download versions. I can clearly see your point here.

No I don't, but from your rants above it seems you hate the fact that people make money. Why do you hate other people's money?

Cause im not an investor and i dont give a damn about their needs. Thats logical thinking.

[Aidy]

There is no optimizing anymore when you use for example the Unreal Engine. You use it as a library within your source and then call the according graphics function with the correct parameters. A ten year old child with a one week development education could do that correctly.

The engine handles a lot of the game framework for you, but you still need to code in the logic that is specific to your game.

So yes, development cost has gone down extremely.

No, they've gone up. All that has changed is that the effort is now being spent in different places. When you do everything from scratch, even the graphics, then you can spend 1,000,000 hours on doing a game. Those 1,000,000 hours are still being spent, just not always on the graphics.

Marketing is at more then fifty percent of the complete game production cost. Thats horrible. And thats the main reason for larger game budgets.

It's obviously not horrible for the game companies, they don't spend that money without knowing it'll get them a return, and they'll factor marketing costs into if the project is doable.

So you havent read stock news the last years?

No I haven't, which is why I asked you a simple question...what are the margins then and now?

I see. Thats why Blizzard closed their support department and outsourced it. Cause .... they care! Thats why developers at EA and at Bethesda keep insulting their customers. Cause .... they care! But I dont want you leave your bubble. Stay there. Its surely comfortable within it.

If you want to take two or three broad strokes anecdotal examples and use that to apply to everyone in an entire industry then that's not a particularly robust argument.

But who knows

If you don't know why are you basing entire arguments around it? Just shows that what you're saying is simply uninformed opinion represented as fact.

[XENO-PUNK]

I remember WipEout HD/Fury having ads during the loading screens. As long as ads don't interupt gameplay I really couldn't care less about them.

[Odyssey]

The engine handles a lot of the game framework for you, but you still need to code in the logic that is specific to your game.



No, they've gone up. All that has changed is that the effort is now being spent in different places. When you do everything from scratch, even the graphics, then you can spend 1,000,000 hours on doing a game. Those 1,000,000 hours are still being spent, just not always on the graphics.



It's obviously not horrible for the game companies, they don't spend that money without knowing it'll get them a return, and they'll factor marketing costs into if the project is doable.



No I haven't, which is why I asked you a simple question...what are the margins then and now?



If you want to take two or three broad strokes anecdotal examples and use that to apply to everyone in an entire industry then that's not a particularly robust argument.



If you don't know why are you basing entire arguments around it? Just shows that what you're saying is simply uninformed opinion represented as fact.

K, to make this quick. You didnt pointed out one argument against the facts Im posted (even proven them with examples of the entertainment industry (which you could easily google) and links about the financial situation of the gaming market during the last 10 years). You even mentioned that using middleware (and middleware isnt connected to graphics in many cases, but instead used for example to translate your objects into source. Take a look into the history of middleware since the dawn of the Playstation 2) )and third party engiens doesnt decrease development costs. You also stated that todays multimedia projects dont have problems finding investors if they arent profitable enough (im so sorry, that I have to be the person which have to introduce you to the real world in which we live nowadays). And the publishers doing nothing. They just searching investors for their game projects. Wondered why there is for example no Star Trek 4? Thats simple. Cause there arent investors for it. And the part of the game budgets which is really exploding is the marketing budget. And the reason for that is simple: They have to announce trash, which most gamers already that its just trash. So its purpose is to build up a virtual hype to deny the fact, that they produce trash. And that costs more and more money. And here you have your exploding game project budgets. Also wondering why the support from companies is getting worse and worse? Thats also simple to answer: Cause support doenst earn profit. And therefor it avoids further investors joining your project.

See how the world is a complete different one outside of your "Games are so expensive and thats why we should steal property from gamers and force dumb ads onto them!" narrative which you obviously read at gaming websites which repated all the PR trash they get from gaming publishers.

[Aidy]

K, to make this quick. You didnt pointed out one argument against the facts Im posted (even proven them with examples of the entertainment industry (which you could easily google) and links about the financial situation of the gaming market during the last 10 years). You even mentioned that using middleware (and middleware isnt connected to graphics in many cases, but instead used for example to translate your objects into source. Take a look into the history of middleware since the dawn of the Playstation 2) )and third party engiens doesnt decrease development costs. You also stated that todays multimedia projects dont have problems finding investors if they arent profitable enough (im so sorry, that I have to be the person which have to introduce you to the real world in which we live nowadays). And the publishers doing nothing. They just searching investors for their game projects. Wondered why there is for example no Star Trek 4? Thats simple. Cause there arent investors for it. And the part of the game budgets which is really exploding is the marketing budget. And the reason for that is simple: They have to announce trash, which most gamers already that its just trash. So its purpose is to build up a virtual hype to deny the fact, that they produce trash. And that costs more and more money. And here you have your exploding game project budgets. Also wondering why the support from companies is getting worse and worse? Thats also simple to answer: Cause support doenst earn profit. And therefor it avoids further investors joining your project.

See how the world is a complete different one outside of your "Games are so expensive and thats why we should steal property from gamers and force dumb ads onto them!" narrative which you obviously read at gaming websites which repated all the PR trash they get from gaming publishers.

What?

We'll just let the people reading this decide who is right and who is wrong.

[isturbo1984]

And nobody is drawing similarities between this and Sony, with all of their smooth moves that past couple of years? Magically this Ps4 exclusive that "wouldn't even be here if not for them" with one of the worst launch blunders in Capcom history? Hmm.

[Erebus]

If it gets to point that it's like watching regular tv then fuck it, I ain't playing it. I hope it's not a snowball on top of a hill.

[Tago]

Private companies can do whatever each of them wants. I just 'hope' they will use in-game commercials in a more enjoyable experience, less problematic. If not, please try to take advantage of this free market system, not buying it and buy a one that offers better experiences.

Sadly, I can easily imagine some consumers willing to accept the worst experience due to stubbornness or ignorances.

[Flipendo101]

Of course it's something we should be concerned about. If left unchecked companies will keep pushing ways for them to make as much money as possible. From what I've seen, street fighter seems to be one of the most egregious pushes for games companies to make more money since Battlefront 2. As long as we keep pushing back, and vote with our wallets, we'll be able to stop it from getting that far.

[Sylentmoogle]

These large companies have run games into the ground. The only one that's still reliable as far as individual games go is Nintendo. Once the old guard retires or passes, though, I'm sure they'll be jumping on the bandwagon as well, assuming the AAA industry is still around. Personally, I think the true future of games is in the indie market. Until the AAA market is forced to reset, at least.

[Aidy]

Of course it's something we should be concerned about. If left unchecked companies will keep pushing ways for them to make as much money as possible.

Companies wanting to make money!! How terrible!!

[Tago]

Making better quality, hiring new people or simply backing up in case something goes wrong is greedy!

[Irritablesquid]

Game publishers make enough money as is, they don't need to add micro transactions, advertisements when the top level management are taking home tens of millions every year.

The CEO of Activision apparently earned $38 million in 2018, clearly there is a huge amount of money in video games.

[Aidy]

That "salary" isn't all cash though, it's stock etc too. Activision are more of an exception rather than the rule though, it's a huge company with many successful titles under its belt so it's not surprising they make more money than most other companies, never mind development companies. If a large part of that profit is due to the CEOs strategies and effort then they get adequately rewarded, welcome to capitalism. Complaining that successful people earn a lot of money just comes off as jealousy really. You should also keep in mind that the Activision CEO runs a charity to help army vets in the US and other countries, Bill Gates has given untold millions to charity. And Steve Jobs....well, he was just a horrible person

[monnef]

Stardew Valley probably cost $280.

Seriously? That is like 3-4 work days for not well paid web dev to earn in quite cheap country in central Europe. Developing a non-trivial game takes many months, usually years. The real cost of developing something like Stardew Valley will be IMO at least 2 orders higher - 28,000$ could last for a year of development for one person and probably not in US. People are seriously all the time underestimating cost of developing games and software in general.

[monnef]

There is no optimizing anymore when you use for example the Unreal Engine. You use it as a library within your source and then call the according graphics function with the correct parameters. A ten year old child with a one week development education could do that correctly.

There definitely is going a lot of optimizing even on "scripting" level. Because it is not as easy as you describe (e.g. spawning whole world filled with enemies will choke any system, so you have to write custom logic for that). Sure, if you have one scene, few lights, one fixed number of objects, trivial game logic, then yes, this is true. But even vast majority of indie games are not that simple. You still have to at least create shaders (and optimize them) to have somewhat unique looks, handle loading (nobody wants loading screens, so asset streaming, splitting to bundles and what not), game logic itself (which you usually will be optimizing in multiple passes), since games are about gameplay (this part takes enormous amount of time, careful planning, selecting algorithms, structures, architecture), not just rendering a scene as you describe. And I oversimplified and forgot for sure many more things.