Would you consider Horizon Zero Dawn an RPG?

[TheSHEEEP]

I'd disagree. RPG is a game where you can create a role, play it, and the game will attempt to react accordingly. Character stats are just a convenient abstraction that makes this easier. For example by allowing a smart person to make a dumb character and still not benefit from their real life intelligence. However this isn't what defines RPGs.

You are letting yourself be fooled by the words "role playing".
If we really were to call every game that let's you play a role like you describe be called an RPG, then basically any game would be an RPG. Including Super Mario World. I play the role of Mario, and choose to bring a genocide of the goombas, by jumping on their heads. I could choose not to, so the game allows me to play as I want. This isn't any different from games like Deus Ex allowing a non-lethal playthrough.
There are also many RPGs (or partly RPGs) that do not let you create the role to begin with (Witcher comes to mind). So character creation is optional as well (for the sake of the definition).

Character stats are an abstraction, yes, and that abstraction is what makes an RPG an RPG.

If it were a completely linear game with no roleplaying opportunities at all could be called an RPG as long as your actions success was based on your characters stats.

Exactly. As it has always been, from the first RPGs in the early 80s (or even earlier?) which really were extremely linear to nowadays. Linearity or not has nothing to with being an RPG or not.
There are many arcade games that are non-linear (for example, the path you take is determined by how you beat bosses), yet nobody would get the idea that they would be RPGs.

You could easily have an entirely skill based shooter where your characters non-combat actions are entirely freeform. Chose the army to fight for, and why, chose to use dialogue as a tool to solve problems non violently. Create any kind of soldier you want, with any backstory you want, and play that character however you imagine... But still have all the shooting be based on your skill as a player. I feel like this kind of game could be called an RPG.

What you describe is a FPS with choices and consequences. That's cool, but if we were to define that RPG, then, again, all games with choices and reactions to them of any kind could be considered RPGs.
At that point, RPG wouldn't much less broad than just calling something "game". The more vague a definition gets, the less useful it is.

The term "RPG" comes from tabletop gaming, where stats + RNG define the outcome of an action. That is the historical definition and therefore the one that should be used instead of trying to redefine it every odd year because everyone now calls everything an RPG, as it may have some small splashes of it. Just because something is old, that doesn't make it wrong.
I agree that the words themselves "role playing game" are extremely vague, which is problematic and has lead to the confusion in many people claiming all kinds of unrelated things. Therefore, it makes more sense to define it historically, by its beginnings.

Some of the people which are also knowledgeable in RPGs say that my definition of RPG is actually cRPG (c stands for computer in that one). I'm a bit on the fence about that. If cRPG is a subset of RPG that focuses on stat abstraction, then what do they actually have in common with just "RPGs"?

[fenrif]

You are letting yourself be fooled by the words "role playing".
If we really were to call every game that let's you play a role like you describe be called an RPG, then basically any game would be an RPG. Including Super Mario World. I play the role of Mario, and choose to bring a genocide of the goombas, by jumping on their heads. I could choose not to, so the game allows me to play as I want. This isn't any different from games like Deus Ex allowing a non-lethal playthrough.
There are also many RPGs (or partly RPGs) that do not let you create the role to begin with (Witcher comes to mind). So character creation is optional as well (for the sake of the definition).

Character stats are an abstraction, yes, and that abstraction is what makes an RPG an RPG.


Exactly. As it has always been, from the first RPGs in the early 80s (or even earlier?) which really were extremely linear to nowadays. Linearity or not has nothing to with being an RPG or not.
There are many arcade games that are non-linear (for example, the path you take is determined by how you beat bosses), yet nobody would get the idea that they would be RPGs.


What you describe is a FPS with choices and consequences. That's cool, but if we were to define that RPG, then, again, all games with choices and reactions to them of any kind could be considered RPGs.
At that point, RPG wouldn't much less broad than just calling something "game". The more vague a definition gets, the less useful it is.

The term "RPG" comes from tabletop gaming, where stats + RNG define the outcome of an action. That is the historical definition and therefore the one that should be used instead of trying to redefine it every odd year because everyone now calls everything an RPG, as it may have some small splashes of it. Just because something is old, that doesn't make it wrong.
I agree that the words themselves "role playing game" are extremely vague, which is problematic and has lead to the confusion in many people claiming all kinds of unrelated things. Therefore, it makes more sense to define it historically, by its beginnings.

Some of the people which are also knowledgeable in RPGs say that my definition of RPG is actually cRPG (c stands for computer in that one). I'm a bit on the fence about that. If cRPG is a subset of RPG that focuses on stat abstraction, then what do they actually have in common with just "RPGs"?

You can't chose to play a role in Mario. Chosing to jump on goombas or not isn't playing a role. You are ignoring the words "role playing." You can't play mario and decide to abandon the princess. Or join Koopa. Or go left instead of right. Saying your choice to not play the game counts as having a role to play is just absurd. It's like saying every game is a point and click adventure because you have to click the mouse while you're playing. Oversimplification of the highest order.

RPGs do not have to let you make your character from scratch. Just decide how they react to things and what their behaviour is in the game world. You can chose how to approach each situation, what your relationships with other characters will be, how you interact with them, what your characters views are on the world around them, etc. And most importantly the game reacts to these choices. Your Geralt is not the same as my Geralt. But your Mario is always the exact same as everyone else's Mario. Though I would argue a game that lets you create your character completely is a more true RPG than a game such as Witcher.

Abstraction is not what makes an RPG an RPG, or else Chess or Pong would be RPGs because they are complete abstractions.

The term RPG comes from tabletop gaming, where players have infinite freedom of choice and the world will infinitely react to their choices in infinite ways. Abstraction is not what defines RPGs, but choice and reaction. CRPGs are, by their nature, a subset of RPGs because they cannot be as reactive and interactive as a live human DM.

[TheSHEEEP]

Look at it like this:
What is choice in a game other than a stat saved to your character's profile, that the world will later react to. Many games even tell you this directly ("Mr. X likes this (Relation+1)").
And later: Checking a character's relation or choice to determine if the guard lets you pass or will block your way. Of course the guard is not a conscious AI or DM that would think about it, it is an abstraction.
That isn't really much different from checking a character's lockpicking stat to see if a lock will open or not.
Both might even include RNG of some sort.

People of a town reacting positively to you due to some choices made isn't really that much different from people of a town reacting positively because your charisma is 14+.
Etc.

In the end, we might be saying similar things, just that my focus is on character skill abstraction (since I really don't care much about dialogue choices, most are just smoke & mirrors anyway), while yours is on dialogue choices and world reaction.

[RepentantSky]

I'd say it's more of an action game with RPG elements, but that's not uncommon in this day and age. People overuse the term RPG these days.

[MadMummy76]

The entire name RPG is a misnomer, every game is an RPG where you assume control of a character.

But of course when we say RPG we mean games, with complicated XP and leveling systems, and inventory management where items have stats. ARPG is a very long scale dependentent on how important the stats are in the game. It can be minimal like in Mass Effect 2 for example, or it can be almost entirely responsible for the outcome of encounters like in Dragon Age Origins. Both are ARPG games, but on the opposite end of the scale.