Do games need to be fun to be good?

[Noobc0re]

What is your take on the notion that a game needs to be fun to be good?

For me that holds true. I play games to have fun, so if it's not fun I don't think it's a good game. This can be applied to books, movies, anime, TV-series etc. However I know there are plenty of people who think otherwise.

[ISP]

On some level yes, they do need to be fun.

[UberDerp]

Depends, do you count Dark Souls as fun?

I fucking hate that game but its such a good game.

[SigSal]

LOL! Beat me to it. Although some people do find great enjoyment/fun from merciless grinding.

[fenrif]

Yes, it's incredibly fun. There's no merciless grinding in the game at all though? There's no grinding at all really unless you want too. It's purely optional.

[Elmo]

Some games either don't start off fun due to slow start and build up to fun when your get more power and control possible example 7 days to die or general survival games.. Mwhahaha.

OR

Like "x4 foundations" it's a case of: make your own fun/adventure in an sandbox universe/world.


So, answering the question do they need to be fun, at some point they do need to be fun, but not necessarily inherently fun.

[Saskia]

Thumbs up for mentioning X4: Foundations. Long time fan of the X series!

[PixelTheory]

Fun is a word that should be totally removed from the discussion around video games.
Someones frustration may actually be another persons fun.
It's too subjective to hold any real value or merit.

Dark Souls 2 was not fun for me, I enjoyed it because of the challenge but I certainly never found that challenge fun.
Mass Effect 1 was not fun for me, I enjoyed it because of the story...
F.E.A.R. was not fun for me, I enjoyed it because of the tension...

You get the idea.

The reason I bring this up is that I have often seen people get into arguments about a game.
X Player would claim that something was "fun"
Y Player would say that it was not "fun"

What X player was really saying was that the game was "Scary"
While Y player was really saying either "I don't like being scared" OR "I did not find it scary"

Exciting, Scary, Tense, Visceral, Comical, Relaxing, Interesting, Deep, Complex, Psychological, Captivating, Unique, Natural, Realistic, Engrossing and Emotional...
These are just a small selection of words that people substitute for the word fun.

SIDE NOTE!
If you ever see the word "FUN" or words "NOT FUN" in a video game review...
Close it and look elsewhere, it's a bad review!

[PixelTheory]

Sorry but you seem to miss the point...
What is the point of explaining why its fun/not fun when that is nothing but your subjective view? It is infinitely more efficient to explain a mechanic and allow people to come up to their own conclusions.

I could say, Mass Effect 2 is fun cause you get to bang chicks.
Would this be the same kinda fun to a straight woman, gay man or someone that's Asexual.
What about to a religious person or someone that simply does not find it fun.

In Mass Effect 2 you get to bang chicks. = TRUE
It's fun to bang chicks in Mass Effect 2. = INCONCLUSIVE

Fun is just a distraction in this situation.

[Noobc0re]

What would be the point of discussing games from a purely objective view? You might as well just make a data sheet at that point.

[PixelTheory]

Noobc0re it's not about objectivity it's about value. I am not talking about the subjectivity of liking or disliking something, I am talking about the what defines fun. "I find X thing fun BECAUSE" instead of "I like X thing because it's fun"

[Zenryu]

I think the fun factor is definitely important, but shouldn't be the only factor either. I do want to feel frustrated in a game, which is generally not seen as fun. The best feeling imo is to feel the sense of accomplishment after getting through a difficult challenge, something that many games these days seem to try to avoid. On top of that, fun is very subjective. one person could be having the time of their life in a game while another person may hate every moment of it with a passion.

[Dub-Z]

Fun is subjective. If I'm enjoying it, it's fun to me.

Even to this day, I see stray comments saying that Souls games are masochistic and people just hate themselves playing "hard" games. No, it feels good. It feels satisfying. The stakes and tension are exciting and exhilarating. The sense of accomplishment and gradual mastery is euphoric. Some people just don't feel enraged or crushed when they lose, 'cause it's all part of the game. I must have lost against the guy who taught me to play chess 50 times before I finally beat him, but every match was super fun

Same for games that seem bleak, melancholy and studious. Some people love a rainy day. Some people find them depressing. I think games with "serious" themes and no moments of levity will be like this as well.

True as well for horror. It's too much stress and anxiety for some, not enough for others.

Obtuse, head scratching puzzles and dense game systems... stimulates one person, infuriates another.

[Wolf]

Define fun............

Depends, do you count Dark Souls as fun?

I fucking hate that game but its such a good game.

You hate it, but you love the good feeling it gives you when you beat it, eh?
That it is an achievement to have done so.....something that none of the "achievements" really give you.
I know, that's how I feel about them.

And I agree with Zenryu and PixelTheory that part of the fun can be your growth in skill you finally beating that tough enemy or mastering that major challenge.

Some of my most satisfying games to play have been iron tough, like say the Gothic Series, the Arma Series, Project IGI, Falcon 4.0 in it's various Guises, various racing sims like Asetto Corsa, rfactor, Raceroom Racing Experience, Project Cars or the Xseries.

Games that gift you nothing, games that do not hold your hand, games where one error at the last second, in the last corner can ruin your race/mission/game.
But also games where each achievement was your own, hard fought for and won, by your own skill, not gifted to you by the games's systems.

[isturbo1984]

Yes. It does. A game that is not fun is called a bad game.

[UberDerp]

Define fun............



You hate it, but you love the good feeling it gives you when you beat it, eh?
That it is an achievement to have done so.....something that none of the "achievements" really give you.
I know, that's how I feel about them.

And I agree with Zenryu and PixelTheory that part of the fun can be your growth in skill you finally beating that tough enemy or mastering that major challenge.

Some of my most satisfying games to play have been iron tough, like say the Gothic Series, the Arma Series, Project IGI, Falcon 4.0 in it's various Guises, various racing sims like Asetto Corsa, rfactor, Raceroom Racing Experience, Project Cars or the Xseries.

Games that gift you nothing, games that do not hold your hand, games where one error at the last second, in the last corner can ruin your race/mission/game.
But also games where each achievement was your own, hard fought for and won, by your own skill, not gifted to you by the games's systems.

Precisely, I dont think a game has to be inherently fun, but the challenge and achievement is what makes a game good.

[Noobc0re]

I'm seeing quite a bit of mentioning that it's subjective. Of course it is. A lot of things are.You can't really talk about games in purely objective terms, it becomes a performance report at that point.

The point of the question is about your definition of fun and whether you need the game to be fun in order to think it's a good game?

[Tuklofeign]

I think they need to be fun on some level in some way. At the very least they need to be engaging or immersive. But that in itself leads to some sort of fun.

[MrNiceGaius]

I'm seeing quite a bit of mentioning that it's subjective. Of course it is. A lot of things are.You can't really talk about games in purely objective terms, it becomes a performance report at that point.

The point of the question is about your definition of fun and whether you need the game to be fun in order to think it's a good game?

I think it'd pointless for anybody to put time into video games they don't find fun. The whole point of games is for them to be a hobby.

However, there are some games I've been able to step back and objectively say they are good games, even if I don't personally find them fun.

[SigSal]

Well I guess the definition of fun depends on my mood. Grind some resources. Play some end game OP content. Build something random (physics or no physics) Slaughter low level NPCs (or players ). For me though generally a game doesn't have to be considered 'fun' for it to be a good game. Interesting story, solid gameplay mechanics or even artful style; I'm sure I have some internal flowchart that I subconsciously reference when determining whether or not a game is good.

[Screamin Soul]

Depends, do you count Dark Souls as fun?

I fucking hate that game but its such a good game.

Dark souls is a miserable, horrible , brilliant and beautiful slog. I hated and loved every minute of it. I never felt like turning it on and then would find hours passed by.

Other than art style, I can't think of anything that truly made it good. But it was still fun. I wish they'd make a 4th.