Denuvo Anti-tamper (Yes/No or toxic view) risky post?

[Elmo]

#10.2

Aidy commented
Today, 01:36 AM


When most people go to Burger King they buy the burger and if they don't like it they get a refund.

But when you go to Burger King you steal the burger and if you liked it you go back and pay for it.

Cos that's what most thieves do. Right?

================================================== ================================

No when i get a game i buy it first from steam, i don't pirate it. IF i can i get a demo from steam before i buy it or watch a youtube video about it i do. I can't taste a burger by going onto youtube or demo a burger.

I refer to the answer given SpicyLemones some moments ago, quote "I think we shouldn't derail the topic into debating whether pirating is bad or not, and stick on whether DRM influences people's decision on making a purchase."

[Aidy]

#10.2

Aidy commented
Today, 01:36 AM


When most people go to Burger King they buy the burger and if they don't like it they get a refund.

But when you go to Burger King you steal the burger and if you liked it you go back and pay for it.

Cos that's what most thieves do. Right?

================================================== ================================

No when i get a game i buy it first from steam, i don't pirate it. IF i can i get a demo from steam before i buy it or watch a youtube video about it i do. I can't taste a burger by going onto youtube or demo a burger.

I refer to the answer given SpicyLemones some moments ago, quote "I think we shouldn't derail the topic into debating whether pirating is bad or not, and stick on whether DRM influences people's decision on making a purchase."

If you hate piracy why do you care about DRM?

[SpicyLemones]

because it shits on people that don't pirate instead of real pirates

[CECIL]

First I will say I don't support piracy. It isn't right but its not exactly theft either. Pirates weren't going to buy the game in the first place, so there is no direct financial loss like they claim there is. We know that any and every game can and will be cracked in time as long as someone out there is willing to put the effort into it.

That's why I don't support DRM like Denuvo. It ends up punishing legit customers while not stopping piracy. CD or Activation Keys I can accept and that should be the limit.

If you want your game (or any product) to do well you need to do 3 things:
1. Make it good.
2. Make it affordable.
3. Make it easy to pay for.

[SpicyLemones]

If you hate piracy why do you care about DRM?

I feel like you're intentionally ignoring my points for some reason.

I have stated again and again, I have no problems with DRM as long as they are not INTRUSIVE to the game's core experience.

DENUVO DRM however, is intrusive to the game's core experience.

If you are not lucky enough to have good enough internet, good luck waiting 20 minutes trying to secure a connection, or even play at all on some games that has DENUVO slapped on it.

You're assuming everyone is a thief, which is completely false. The point of the post was to discuss how DRM affects someone's decision on purchasing the game, not whether or not piracy is okay.

To reiterate my opinions.

YES, DRMS LIKE DENUVO DOES AFFECT MY DECISION ON PURCHASE A GAME, why?

Because of how intrusive it is to the game itself. How many games out there lock you out of the game because you don't have an internet connection or a fast connection? I hope this helps you understand the point of the argument here.

No one hates anti-piracy prevention, some developers has even sneaked in novel anti-piracy methods like Game Dev Tycoon (The game would end with a silly message if you pirate it) and I consider it pretty hilarious and a positive thing to do.
HOWEVER, DRMs like DENUVO is SHIT because they hold the game hostage from you, and if you can't get a stable connection going, then get fucked

I hope this helps us come to a mutual understanding and reclarify the point of the thread, rather than devolving into the "no u" cycle..

[Aidy]

First I will say I don't support piracy. It isn't right but its not exactly theft either. Pirates weren't going to buy the game in the first place, so there is no direct financial loss like they claim there is. We know that any and every game can and will be cracked in time as long as someone out there is willing to put the effort into it.

That's why I don't support DRM like Denuvo. It ends up punishing legit customers while not stopping piracy. CD or Activation Keys I can accept and that should be the limit.

If you want your game (or any product) to do well you need to do 3 things:
1. Make it good.
2. Make it affordable.
3. Make it easy to pay for.

CECIL.....do you have a job?

[CECIL]

Yes and I saw your previous arguments. I do believe people should be paid for their work which is why I don't support piracy. As others have pointed out the issue isn't as simple as if you don't support piracy you must support DRM. For me it boils down to this: DRM doesn't work. It doesn't stop piracy and it hurts legitimate customers. Therefore I don't support DRM such as Denuvo. As I stated, things like activation keys are totally fine as they are usually a once off proof of purchase.

[Aidy]

If you are not lucky enough to have good enough internet, good luck waiting 20 minutes trying to secure a connection, or even play at all on some games that has DENUVO slapped on it.

If that's normal then those games will all fail and the system as a whole will fail so no need to worry about it. No-one is going to wait 20 mins to play a game.

[LogenVos]

I don't like Denuvo. Never will. The SecuRom which is ancestor to Denuvo messed up my CD-Rom badly resulting to being unable to use it. But games I like it has it. What can I do? I just suck it up and still play games like Monster Hunter World and God Eater. I'll be much happier if it doesn't exist in my games.

[SpicyLemones]

If that's normal then those games will all fail and the system as a whole will fail so no need to worry about it. No-one is going to wait 20 mins to play a game.

Exactly, that's why these games suffer from their DRM when they reach full circle, and that's why some developers take it off after the fact that they realize it's not doing anything at all but shitting on legit customers

[Aerrae]

When you go to the cinema and you don't like the movie do you still pay for it?

Only cause I have to.

The only way to not pay is to sneak in so you'd have to decide beforehand that it's not worth paying for.

Video games are one such thing that someone can wait and decide what is and isn't worth paying for in their opinion.

It's pretty hard to have a discussion on it because people have a set way of thinking of who deserves money and for what.

Do you support Ubisoft devs but not the company? Well you can't send your money directly to the devs. It has to go to the CEO so that they can distribute 90% of that to their bloated paycheck while the overworked devs get 2 cents and a demand to get back to work.

Our system doesn't really work at all in the games industry. It's not a surprise to me that some people are apathetic about paying up with certain companies.

I personally pay for 99% of my products. The exception being incredibly old games that are sold for exorbitant prices or other stuff that's simply difficult to obtain.

I think it's hard to just wave it off as unjustifiable these days. Part of capitalism is also rewarding a business that does things well with money and most triple a businesses are animals.

If devs banded together and created a patreon to pay them directly, I'd never buy a game directly from a big game company ever again.

That's my view on it anyways.

Don't fall into the trap of never questioning what's right and wrong because you were told and taught something has always been right. That's how we came to this age where corporations can abuse uneducated workers. Because the protestant work ethic is noble and you're called a good person for enslaving yourself to pay for a CEO's lavish life style off the back of your labor.

But if you question it you're lazy, amoral, useless to society.

It's no different than the tactics a certain few groups on the internet most people don't like employ.

Stuff like the game industry and where our money goes is always worth discussing. Exchange of ideas is what makes things better, if we just cut it off because we believe in some moral high ground that was thrust upon us in a different time then we're bound to never improve.

The exception of course is always the taking of human life, that is one moral ground that never changes despite the circumstances.

[SpicyLemones]

I agree with Aerrae, however sorry for semi-hijacking but I have to emphasize how dumb the argument about cinemas is.

You can sneak into the cinema if you so very much want to, and you can pirate games if you really want to, you can't stop people from doing both, only prevent it, but if your prevention starts by putting up immigration checkpoints in front of every cinema door then you ruin the fun for the legit watchers, because they have to spend 30 minutes in a full-body-identification just because some dicks sneak into cinemas to watch movies.

[Aidy]

Only cause I have to.

I thank you for your honesty. People steal games because they can, and then they come up with post-action reasons to justify that theft to quell their guilt....if it was good I would have bought it, I wouldn't have bought it anyway so you didn't lose out, and so on.

[Elmo]

I've got to admire your tenacity on not just this, but many posts on this forum. It is commendable and promotes discussion.

[Aidy]

I have nothing to add but my signature

[TheSHEEEP]

DRM simply isn't necessary.
Those who want to pirate for whatever reasons (when I was a kid, I didn't buy the majority of games, I just couldn't afford to, nowadays I pay for everything) will do so. Besides always-online games, anything can and will be cracked, often even prior to release.

People in CEO chairs without clues want DRMs because someone promised them they'll get more money. They won't, it never worked like that.
Actually, as kind of a cross-topic post for the consoles thread, that is an argument in favor of consoles - at least from a developer perspective. No need to worry about harmful DRM like Denuvo, but still you are (mostly) safe from piracy.

[fenrif]

Pirating is fine. Pirate all you want. Data is information and information wants to be free.

[Garrett]

Looking at Tom Clancy's Ghost Recon Wildlands in the sale:
*In apps purchases(micro-transactions)
*season passes year 1and 2
*separate DLC.

I have the game and it's actually this:
-Base game has a huge library of cosmetics for customization. Microtransactions let you get about 50% more of them.
-They also sell a few guns, but every gun is just a different balance of the same stats. Pay2Win would be if there were objectively superior guns for sale.
-You can pay to get upgrades. Those upgrades are hidden in the singleplayer map and an integral part of the game is exploration and finding those things as rewards. Microtransactions let you skip that. Yeah, you can pay to decrease the amount of gameplay in your game.
-The first major game update added the ability to earn the microtransaction rewards ingame without paying. It's slow, and it's obviously meant to incentivize actual purchases, but for people like me who will never make in-app purchases it's simply a free bonus.
-I'm not sure what "season pass" does because every major update to the game gives every player free new missions that are basically DLC.
-The DLC probably has to be separate because the game is a multiplayer hybrid, so you can't just change the open world content for players who have a piece of DLC because it would prevent their friends from playing with them if they don't own the DLC. That's why all of the changes to the open world are free. Everyone is guaranteed to get them.

I dislike DRM as much as anyone, but the in-app purchase model of this game is one of the fairest. Who the hell develops a game with cosmetic microtransactions and a half a year later adds a system for earning those for free? I know it's psychological manipulation but I'm not complaining about gullible fucks being scammed because I'm immune. inb4 "u were scamd into buying this game and thinking that its economy is fair lel"

[Elmo]

Thank you for the heads up, based on your post i will look again at this game. It does look enjoyable and the YouTube(lets plays) videos on it look good too.

[Aerrae]

I thank you for your honesty. People steal games because they can, and then they come up with post-action reasons to justify that theft to quell their guilt....if it was good I would have bought it, I wouldn't have bought it anyway so you didn't lose out, and so on.

Y'know there was a lot more of that post... Ah you know what? Nevermind. This is your thing isn't it?

Yeesh.

[SpicyLemones]

¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I wish he/she would actually talk about the stuff that matters rather than just deflecting it and ignoring the main points while going "do you have a job?" that absolutely go nowhere

[Aerrae]

I'm actually fascinated and amused myself.

[Elmo]

Yeah it's is rather odd and debilitating, when a point we make is deflected in such a way that it ends up going round in circle or almost dodging the rational "argument".

Reminds me of when Digital Homicide did an interview with Jim Sterling and when Digital Homicide tried to sue Jim and people on steam. The rational was missing greatly to the point of absurd.

Digital Homicides Robert kept asking different questions to try and deflect the argument to TRY to win a point, of course Robert never did succeed, but ended up making more a fool of himself.

Sorry, I'm going off subject


I think(if i'm reading most on this discussion thread correctly so far) have come to a consensus that if a game was affordable and well made that sales in that game in the long term would be good for the Dev/publisher long term and that pirating can't be proven to effect sales.

I think we'd be more happy with DRM that does not cause the game to become reductant if the protection is discontinued or effect performance.

I'd much prefer encryption type protection like Armadillo, aspack or other file encryption techniques than a phone home protection, which if redundant, one has no choice to be reversed the protection to play the game well after the games popular life.

Enjoying reading peoples take on DRM in Games in this thread.

Oh a side note: the comparison between cinema and video game transactions a few posts ago. A Movie can be stolen either by sneaking in to Movie or using a cam corder to steal that movie and distribute it to others on the internet or on DVD. So, another reason why Movie Theatres and Digital distributed Video games analogy is flawed.

[fenrif]

Sneaking into a cinema or using a camcorder to record a movie is not stealing. It's unauthorized copying. Stealing a movie would be going into a shop and pocketing a DVD without paying for it. It's only stealing if you deprive the owner of the item in question.

Illegally copying a game is on the same level as fast forwarding through adverts, watching a letsplay on youtube (for walking sims and visual novels an the like), recording a song off the radio, reading a book over someones shoulder, etc.

[Elmo]

Fenrif comment, "Sneaking into a cinema or using a camcorder to record a movie is not stealing. It's unauthorized copying." Good point, thanks for the correction.