Denuvo Anti-tamper (Yes/No or toxic view) risky post?

[Aidy]

When most people go to Burger King they buy the burger and if they don't like it they get a refund.

But when you go to Burger King you steal the burger and if you liked it you go back and pay for it.

Cos that's what most thieves do. Right?

[SpicyLemones]

I understand what you're trying to convey, I agree, but what I posted above has two completely different context and I don't think you're getting the message.


1. Why do game developers put in DRM to their game?

Because they are worried people won't buy their game. Ergo, if you wanna make sure people buy your game, make it good and don't put in shitty DRM that ruins the fun for everyone, including the legit customers.

2. Pirating is still not okay, ok.

Yes, it's not okay, if a game is shit, I won't buy it, I won't pirate it either. No one pirates games just because they're bad, you're missing the point.

How does the two sentences correlate to each other again?

_______________________________


You're assuming everyone is a thief, which is completely false. The point of the post was to discuss how DRM affects someone's decision on purchasing the game, not whether or not piracy is okay.

To reiterate my opinions.

YES, DRMS LIKE DENUVO DOES AFFECT MY DECISION ON PURCHASE A GAME, why?

Because of how intrusive it is to the game itself. How many games out there lock you out of the game because you don't have an internet connection or a fast connection? I hope this helps you understand the point of the argument here.

No one hates anti-piracy prevention, some developers has even sneaked in novel anti-piracy methods like Game Dev Tycoon (The game would end with a silly message if you pirate it) and I consider it pretty hilarious and a positive thing to do.
HOWEVER, DRMs like DENUVO is SHIT because they hold the game hostage from you, and if you can't get a stable connection going, then get fucked

[Aidy]

SpicyLemones in response to me criticising pirates that say if people did a good job I would buy it:

Pirating is never okay, no one has justified it, or has tried to justify it at all

Also SpicyLemones:

just make a good game

[Elmo]

Implies you agree with the numerous fallacious arguments around piracy that it does no harm? it does do harm , but how much harm? Also your burger analogy implies i can't return the burger before eating it at all. If i buy something and i don't like it i take it back. So if i buy a burger and don't' like the look of it or taste a bit of it and don't like it. Then I'm not entitled to at least complain or try to get a replacement.burger. So your saying i should put up and shut up. Also what's the problem with if people did a good job people would buy it. If i see a good painting i am more likely to buy it.

[SpicyLemones]

Pirating is never okay, no one has justified it, or has tried to justify it at all, if anything, all Elmo did was try to understand whether people decide on NOT making a purchase on products because they have DRM in it or not. Whether piracy is good or bad has never been in the argument, so I don't see the point to it. Arguing and comparing software and burgers is absurd.

People who pirate game does not equate to game sales, I know this as a fact due to my background from a developing country where video games were extremely scarce to come by and expensive. People either get cheap pirated copies of games or don't at all, people who pirate mainly do it because of monetary reasons (which would be obvious), games are a luxury, if they can't get it for free or an affordable price, they don't get the game at all, simple.

I think we shouldn't derail the topic into debating whether pirating is bad or not, and stick on whether DRM influences people's decision on making a purchase.

[Aidy]

Are you equating the speculation that because I see something maybe hindrance to the customer who pays for a persons work, as me thinking that the person who did the work should not be entitled to protect that work from being stolen.

I'm thinking that your distaste for DRM (which was obvious from your post, please don't try and now deny that) implies you agree with the numerous fallacious arguments around piracy that it does no harm, it actually helps, if people did a good job people would buy it blah blah blah.

When I go to McDonalds and I don't like how the burger is made.....I still pay for it because I'm still using it. That's how the economy works and just because you can steal software but you can't steal Burger King that doesn't make it right; pseudo-justification doesn't validate theft.

The problem with people who don't work in "non tangible" mediums is that they rarely appreciate that theft of those non-tangible assets is no different from tangible ones. If I got you to repair a PCB for me and I didn't pay you saying "Well if you did a better job I would have paid for it....if a PCB repair is good then I'll pay for it later, in fact I'll pay for it twice". You would never accept your clients doing that, all of the BS people come out with to justify piracy is just that. BS.

[Sorain]

Denuvo anti-tamper is a failure at it's job. Consistently it has failed to accomplish it's stated goal and it's developers have attempted to claim they had another objective after the fact. That is simply the reality.

The fact that DRM has never been sufficiently capable to provide any positive impact by effective protection, even with 3-4 schemes running at once, combined with the fact that essentially every DRM system ever devised since CD KEYs has involved some level of performance hit to the consumer (however negligible it might be with things like Steam) is enough for me to call DRM as currently implemented a failure.

It simply does not provide value for money for it's customer, the game developer and publisher, while negatively impacting both the reputation of the customer and their bottom line. DRM like Denuvo is effectively (even if unintentionally) a scam, akin to papal indulgences. It's nothing but paying a company to assure you that your game won't be pirated, despite the fact it will.

Either your product can be profitable despite criminal activity, or your product will fail regardless of criminal activity.

[Elmo]

#7.2

Aidy commented
21st Dec 2018, @ 12:24 AM


So you have a job and you get paid to do that job? You get money for the effort you do? Why don't you think other people should get money for what they do? If you spent effort learning to code, learning to write a game, shouldn't you also get paid for that work? What is it about people who write music, create games etc that other people think that they should be the arbiter of if that person is paid for their work when they would never accept those conditions for the work they do themselves?

---

My Answer for what it's worth:

Aidy Quote, "Why don't you think other people should get money for what they do?"

Aidy, Are you equating the speculation that because I see something maybe hindrance to the customer who pays for a persons work, as me thinking that the person who did the work should not be entitled to protect that work from being stolen. Then on that I totally believe the Dev/publish is entitled to Protect and be paid for their work.

A pirate will find a way no matter the protection, i do not support pirates. I've spent thousands of pounds on games, even ones with Denuvo and All Steam based DRM and season passes etc.... I should of added the line I'm fine with Denuvo IF it's fair to customer and protects the Devs.

I think the part were I mentioned Streaming over the internet (e.g. Psnow) games and me dreading it, is not because i don't think the dev shouldn't protecting their game and should be paid for their work, but looking at the games industry the way it is today are practices such as multiple DRM, season passes and Early access and cost fair now days than they used to be?

Yes we have a choice whether to buy, but if the customer buys more and feels he/she doesn't need to pirate dues to value for money. Then will the Dev sell more copies and make more in the long run.

I may be wrong and i do hate games being pirated, because it is effecting us the paying consumer e.g. DRM.

[Aidy]

So you have a job and you get paid to do that job? You get money for the effort you do? Why don't you think other people should get money for what they do? If you spent effort learning to code, learning to write a game, shouldn't you also get paid for that work? What is it about people who write music, create games etc that other people think that they should be the arbiter of if that person is paid for their work when they would never accept those conditions for the work they do themselves?

[Elmo]

IT consultant, used to be an Laptop PCB Repairer in London. Why do you ask?... if it's because i post a lot, it's because I'm kind addicted to good discussion on forums. If it's because you think I'm in over my head then you/anyone is welcome to think I'm wrong or criticise me constructively.

[Aidy]

Elmo do you have a job? (serious question)

[SpicyLemones]

Alternatively, just make a good game like what CD Projekt did on Witcher 3, and what every other successful indie titles like Undertale did.

Things like Denuvo only exists for game publishers or developers to cover their ass on games that they aren't confident at, they might say otherwise, but time and time again has proven that some of the biggest best sellers has always been games that have none of the bullshit DRM trying to inject itself like some sort of alien parasite, so that people can't give it a test drive to find out how shit it is and not buy it.

CD Projekt were absolutely confident that Witcher 3 would be an amazing game that people would be willing to pay for without the need to shoehorn in DRM, and they were damn right it is, and as a result I've purchased the game twice already.

[Animusisters]

Anti piracy techniques like Denuvo are there to prevent piracy. Once a game is "cracked" and you can pirate it, the anti piracy measure has outlived its usefulness.

[Damian Cunliffe]

I understand that developers want people to pay for their work. I totally get it and I agree with them. If people want to enjoy your work they should pay for it. I'm with you 100%.

Now I've made my stance on that clear, let me say something else...

You will never stop pirates from disabling your anti-piracy devices and pirating your games. It's never going to happen. So stop harming genuine customers with invasive crap like Denuvo because genuine customers are the only people being harmed by it! Pirates remove it from their copies of your game!

[JackofTears]

I would love to see a study on how much money games that don't include this tech make vs games that do. Are more people buying non-drm games? Are sites, like GOG, making more sales because of their practice? Admitting to nothing, if I were to download a game and like it enough to play all the way through, I would - hypothetically - go on to buy that game, without fail; in which case, the download was more of a demo that sold the game. I hear a lot of people who, theoretically, download games share this very sentiment. This is why I like Steam's 2hour return policy, as it gives you time to try a game out and get a feel for it, without risk. The only problem I see arising from that, is some games are now packing their first two hours with the best gameplay, or so many cutscenes that you barely play the game at all. Rather than rely on the game to sell itself, they start resorting to con jobs, which is just going to drive more people back to using torrents to try games out. Though I condone no crime.