Language learning with games

[SnowyJess]

So I've wanted to learn Japanese for a while (and I keep slacking on it) and decided gaming would be a good way to try and learn or just generally aid in learning as it's something I'm more likely to come back to regularly. I decided to start with Okami since I already know the game inside and out so there's little chance of me getting stuck, it's a fairly text-heavy game, it uses furigana which makes things a lot easier, and important text is highlighted in red. for this playthrough I'm only focusing on hiragana and katakana, after a few play sessions I can already read hiragana without having to look at a character sheet every five seconds although I'm still a bit slow, and I know a little bit of katakana. I'll most likely do another playthrough actually looking up meanings for everything or focusing on grammar at some point. I'm only doing character recognition at the moment and occasionally looking up a word that I recognize but don't know the meaning. I was also thinking of using this method of playing alongside various resources with The Wind Waker and Twilight Princess for some of the same reasons as Okami.

Some of the sites I've been using the most at the moment are giudetojapanese.org and jisho.org along with google translate (not for any kind of translation but just because the write function seems more accurate at identifying what I'm trying to write than the one on jisho, and sometimes trying to figure out what went wrong with some of it's translations). There's a game called Slime Forest Adventure which looks interesting, and there's a program called Wanderbar which also looks interesting and i think it would be nice to see more support for it or if other people built on the concept in some way, there's an overview and some plugins for it here: https://legendsoflocalization.com/wanderbar/


I was just wondering if anyone here has tried learning a language through games and if so what games were the most helpful?

[Damian Cunliffe]

I learned to speak German from playing Medal of Honour: Allied Assault for like 1000 hours back in 2001. Unfortunately the only German I learned pertains to an active combat situation, so unless I ever find myself in a military combat situation with German soldiers (as in, I'm on their side) then it's useless.

But hey, in this day and age, anything can happen.

[SnowyJess]

I ended up noticing something similar from watching anime, I would sometimes pick up a couple of words when watching a series and I'd pick up different words based on what I was watching, like for instance I realized I was picking up stuff to do with thieves and treasure from watching Lupin III.

[ethansito]

SnowyJess Try watching anime with the Japanese sound and Japanese subtitles.

[Matias]

I learned my first english words from videogames when i was really young like 7 or something. Started by asking my parents what all the menu stuff means and them translating the main parts from game objectives for me. it didn't take long at all and i was able to understand menus without any help so i think games are really good way to learn languages especially because lots of same words are repeated in almost every game.
English is my second language or more officially a third one . Finnish being my first language

[SnarkyJay]

Check out Hiragana Pixel Party. It will teach you the "alphabet" of the Japanese language, both the pronunciation and how to read it. It's a fun game, and can be had for not much money.

[Merlin]

As a native English speaker who has been abroad let me tell you, this is totally valid. The best speakers of English are those who either watched English speaking tv and movies, or those who played video games. One person I met said I was the first real english conversation he'd had ever. He spoke really well, and said he never really learned from anything but videogames and translating for himself. He was better than most "english teachers" I met. Learning language I am convinced is not a classroom affair outside of teaching grammar and maybe teaching about culture/history to give the language some context.

I also would say don't play games or use tools meant to ease you into a language. Get expose to real life stuff. real life doesn't moddy coddle you, and you want to learn the words you would use. So keep doing as you are. You are on a good path. With Japanese I can see how its hard with all the chinese characters, as it adds a layer of abstraction. Just learn the kanji. Sorry about it, but you need to do it. There are methods, they are debated, I'm sure you know them. But if you can't read, you can't read.

If you just want phonetics play pokemon games as they all AFAIK only use phonetics characters, no Kanji.

Another tactic I suggest is play a game you know inside and out in the target languge. For me, I'd play a zelda game,for you something else maybe. If you have played something and are very familiar with it, you already know what the characters are saying, what the context is, and what is coming next. By doing this, you can more easily learn new words and follow the plot. You may understand only %30 of what is being said, but still follow along and not get lost, and you will start stitching together words like never before. This applies to video and books too. So if you binge watch something over and over, do it in Japanese. A popular one for language is almost always read harry potter, everyone knows it, its in like a zillion languages, and its fun to read without being too challenging.

Hope that helps encourage you. I've done maybe too much looking into how to learn language, and Japanese in particular too. So hopfully we can share ideas. Also yeah Jisho sucks at the kanji tool. I thought it was stroke order maybe, but I can tell you even that isn't the issue. Its just bad.

[SckizoBoy]

Heh... I learned a bit of Chinese from playing RO (local server) with the missus, though the gameplay was too tedious for me to get into it (purely PvE among her group and lacking the 'R' in 'RPG' in what they tended to do, they did a LOT of grinding, she even took over my character for long stretches), but it was kinda slow going, and I learned better from random YT vids (cos the game has zero subtitles and needed a lot of referring to the missus for shit is and checking with the English equivalents... but I hate E to C/C to E transliterations, they universally suck).

Anyway, knowing Japanese (but having not studied kanji much), reading Japanese text gives me a headache. As mentioned, I speak Chinese (a couple variants thereof, too), so when I read Japanese, the kana (hira- and kata-), I'll vocalise as they should be vocalised, along with those easier kanji that I do remember, but those I don't, I'll vocalise in one or another reading in Chinese. Now, no-one needs me telling them how bizarre that would sound.

What's worse is when characters like '行' come around 'cos this (and a fair few other hanzi/kanji) have multiple readings in both Chinese and Japanese AND have multiple tones (context dependent) in those Chinese languages I do speak.

What I would like to learn is zhuyin/bopomofo, but eh... not much of a market for games that help one learn that!

[SnowyJess]

I think I've seen some examples of how multiple readings can lead to some rather interesting translations, One of my favorites is probably the "Fuck Vegetables" sign. I'd also like to learn a bit more Welsh than the small amount I remember from school but unfortunately there's not much media in Welsh, the Asterix comics are one of the only things I can think of and the Welsh version has been out of print for years.

[SckizoBoy]

@SnowyJess: See, that's the thing, it doesn't actually matter how they're 'read' (as in vocalised), because when written down, within the context of the surrounding characters, whether in Chinese or Japanese, there's only one definition (unless we're talking poetry, in which case, we're screwed!). However, if it's read out with listeners unaware of how it's written, then yes, that can lead to a lot of... weirdness, in either language (groups), and probably it coming across as gibberish, since both Japanese and Chinese are very context heavy languages with somewhat limited syllabaries (Japanese has fifty something, Chinese has more, particularly when complimented by the tones, but still, very few when compared to other Latin languages) so a stream of moras using a series of mixed vocalisations on'yomi vs kun'yomi is gonna get real messy real soon, and likewise with noun vs verb readings for hanzi. Like you say, thank god for furigana (I'd be stuck using Chinese pronunciations otherwise in a lot of cases). I'd say it's worse in Japanese since pretty much every kanji has at least two readings, while such hanzi make a small minority (as far as I'm aware...!).

Still, they printed Asterix in Welsh?! Wonder how the market for that was...!

[SnowyJess]

As a native English speaker who has been abroad let me tell you, this is totally valid. The best speakers of English are those who either watched English speaking tv and movies, or those who played video games. One person I met said I was the first real english conversation he'd had ever. He spoke really well, and said he never really learned from anything but videogames and translating for himself. He was better than most "english teachers" I met. Learning language I am convinced is not a classroom affair outside of teaching grammar and maybe teaching about culture/history to give the language some context.

I also would say don't play games or use tools meant to ease you into a language. Get expose to real life stuff. real life doesn't moddy coddle you, and you want to learn the words you would use. So keep doing as you are. You are on a good path. With Japanese I can see how its hard with all the chinese characters, as it adds a layer of abstraction. Just learn the kanji. Sorry about it, but you need to do it. There are methods, they are debated, I'm sure you know them. But if you can't read, you can't read.

If you just want phonetics play pokemon games as they all AFAIK only use phonetics characters, no Kanji.

Another tactic I suggest is play a game you know inside and out in the target languge. For me, I'd play a zelda game,for you something else maybe. If you have played something and are very familiar with it, you already know what the characters are saying, what the context is, and what is coming next. By doing this, you can more easily learn new words and follow the plot. You may understand only %30 of what is being said, but still follow along and not get lost, and you will start stitching together words like never before. This applies to video and books too. So if you binge watch something over and over, do it in Japanese. A popular one for language is almost always read harry potter, everyone knows it, its in like a zillion languages, and its fun to read without being too challenging.

Hope that helps encourage you. I've done maybe too much looking into how to learn language, and Japanese in particular too. So hopfully we can share ideas. Also yeah Jisho sucks at the kanji tool. I thought it was stroke order maybe, but I can tell you even that isn't the issue. Its just bad.

Yeah, familiarity is the main reason I went with Okami, I've played through that game so many times that I'm unlikely to get stuck and it's an interesting change from how I usually play it. Add to that the fact that I try to 100% the game on every playthrough and talk to everyone then I end up reading through a lot of dialogue. I'll most likely do the same with Wind Waker once the Wii is set up again, I'd like to play it again at some point and I need to test if the region mod worked anyway. I'll probably do multiple playthroughs focusing on different aspects as well, it feels a bit like piecing together a puzzle, sometimes the more of the puzzle that you've figured out the easier the rest becomes to fit together.

I find the Wanderbar tool really interesting as it was made for quickly comparing translations and some of the plugins even support a hover dictionary as well, there's one that displays four different translations of Final Fantasy 6 and from what I remember there's also a Super Mario All Stars plugin made to test some stuff and does things like slightly corrupt the game every time you die in The Lost Levels.

[Damian Cunliffe]

As a native English speaker who has been abroad let me tell you, this is totally valid. The best speakers of English are those who either watched English speaking tv and movies, or those who played video games. One person I met said I was the first real english conversation he'd had ever. He spoke really well, and said he never really learned from anything but videogames and translating for himself. He was better than most "english teachers" I met. Learning language I am convinced is not a classroom affair outside of teaching grammar and maybe teaching about culture/history to give the language some context.

I also would say don't play games or use tools meant to ease you into a language. Get expose to real life stuff. real life doesn't moddy coddle you, and you want to learn the words you would use. So keep doing as you are. You are on a good path. With Japanese I can see how its hard with all the chinese characters, as it adds a layer of abstraction. Just learn the kanji. Sorry about it, but you need to do it. There are methods, they are debated, I'm sure you know them. But if you can't read, you can't read.

If you just want phonetics play pokemon games as they all AFAIK only use phonetics characters, no Kanji.

Another tactic I suggest is play a game you know inside and out in the target languge. For me, I'd play a zelda game,for you something else maybe. If you have played something and are very familiar with it, you already know what the characters are saying, what the context is, and what is coming next. By doing this, you can more easily learn new words and follow the plot. You may understand only %30 of what is being said, but still follow along and not get lost, and you will start stitching together words like never before. This applies to video and books too. So if you binge watch something over and over, do it in Japanese. A popular one for language is almost always read harry potter, everyone knows it, its in like a zillion languages, and its fun to read without being too challenging.

Hope that helps encourage you. I've done maybe too much looking into how to learn language, and Japanese in particular too. So hopfully we can share ideas. Also yeah Jisho sucks at the kanji tool. I thought it was stroke order maybe, but I can tell you even that isn't the issue. Its just bad.

All very true. Videogames have always had a bad reputation. They're antisocial, they cause violence, they're a waste of time and so forth. In my (27 years of gaming) experience that simply is not the case. Even back in the days before multiplayer, single player games were a social experience. A group of friends huddled around a tiny TV hooked up to an Amiga or a Commodore 64, all being entertained. Then later there was split-screen multiplayer. Then there were MMO's, the ultimate anti-antisocial experience. I had a guild in WoW with people from all over the UK, all over Europe, a Russian, someone from Brazil, someone from Venezuela and even a boy from Saudi Arabia (though unfortunately his father smashed his PC up when he heard him fraternizing with infidels, we heard it all). All of them spoke bad English but got better and better as they learned to speak English by playing on an EU/UK server with English speaking players. You also learn a ton of stuff from videogames. When I visit my grandma she always has quiz shows on the TV so I watch those with her. You have no idea how many questions I know because I learned that particular thing from a videogame. It's insane.

[Merlin]

Yeah, familiarity is the main reason I went with Okami, I've played through that game so many times that I'm unlikely to get stuck and it's an interesting change from how I usually play it. Add to that the fact that I try to 100% the game on every playthrough and talk to everyone then I end up reading through a lot of dialogue. I'll most likely do the same with Wind Waker once the Wii is set up again, I'd like to play it again at some point and I need to test if the region mod worked anyway. I'll probably do multiple playthroughs focusing on different aspects as well, it feels a bit like piecing together a puzzle, sometimes the more of the puzzle that you've figured out the easier the rest becomes to fit together.

I find the Wanderbar tool really interesting as it was made for quickly comparing translations and some of the plugins even support a hover dictionary as well, there's one that displays four different translations of Final Fantasy 6 and from what I remember there's also a Super Mario All Stars plugin made to test some stuff and does things like slightly corrupt the game every time you die in The Lost Levels.

That sounds like a good plan. Of course you have to do a little more than just play a game or two to make rapid progress. Listen to and watch some shows too. But it sounds like you have the perfect game in mind for yourself.

I'd also suggest using the Heisig Kanji method.

[SnowyJess]

Oh I watch a lot of shows, I find children's shows can be good for basic stuff as they tend to be quite visual, fairly simple and are often quite repetitive. Plus some of them can be quite calming. I've also got the first 14 volumes of Inuyasha that I still need to get around to reading, I think that's one where I'll be looking up meanings for everything as I'm reading.

I haven't heard of the Heisig Kanji method before, I'll have to look into it.

[Merlin]

yeah I'm super nerded out on all the intricate bits of learning Japanese(also trying to do it). I'm not using much games yet as I'm trying to first build a foundation with Kanji with a bit of grammar and not much else besides canned phrases. So I can help outside of just what might be a good game. Without getting too off track though. James Heisig wrote a book called "remember the Kanji". The method is taking the kanji pieces, showing them to you in order of easy to hard(instead of most common use to least common) so that it builds that way, you assign a keyword to it in your native language(English in your case I imagine), and you make a little story to remember it. Do that 2236 times and you finish the book, and it guides you. Pair that with an anki(spaced reptition digital flash card application) deck for it, which I could help you set up. Then as you learn what the actual words are, you can easily piece it together and not worry about how to write it. Also helps you with words you don't know yet as you read along. Hard to explain, but PM me if you want more help. I don't want to go off topic too far unless anyone else is interested.

[Borghir]

I learned a lot of English at an early age from leisure suit larry 1. You had to type sentences like 'tie rope to wrist'. I spend a lot of saturday mornings reading the dictionary to find a way to progress.

[Merlin]

I learned a lot of English at an early age from leisure suit larry 1. You had to type sentences like 'tie rope to wrist'. I spend a lot of saturday mornings reading the dictionary to find a way to progress.

Yes, that is how to do it. You motivate yourself to know what something means, and it helps you understand the game better and you make progress.