Star Citizen

[Murray]

Yeah, that name causes a lot of thoughts to pop up in your head, doesn't it?

Probably one of the more fascinating topics to discuss within gaming. The most crowd funded game of all time and, depending on what side you're on, it either looks promising or like an ongoing dreadful failure. At least I seldom see anyone taking a neutral position.

Personally, I would put myself in the position of somewhat negative towards the game's outlook. When I think about the massive amount of money spent on it and how unfinished the game still looks, I can't help but worry that it's gonna end up unfinished and Cloud Imperium Games going bankrupt. I don't know if this has already happened, but alternatively, they might get bought up by some publisher company to pick up the slack.

Of course I want the game to succeed, but there are just so many things weighing against its success that I can't help but worry. Every now and then, CIG shows up to show off some new promised feature that they'll implement into the game or some kind of new ship model or bundle that you can pre-purchase to support them, but never do I see much tangible reassurance that the game is actually coming along nicely. Sure, what they've shown looks promising, but it's just nuggets of footage from what is supposed to be a gigantic game universe and I'm struggling to see how they'll be able to put this all together in the end. Judging from individuals playing alpha builds, it looks extremely worrying. I know that things like this gets fixed as they work on the title, but it's just a crazy amount of glitches and terrible optimization issues that really ought to have been sorted by now.

Sometimes the whole thing just comes across as a ponzi scheme to me. CIG keeps promising new things and then more people throw their money at them and the only way for CIG to keep it going is to persuade more people into throwing more money. If the money actually resulted in them showing more of the title, I would have probably been less pessimistic, but as things stand, it just looks like they're painting themselves into a financial bankrupcy corner.

Curious to hear your thoughts about this game. Are you optimistic? Perhaps I'm missing something? Fire away.

[Alexander6377]

I mean I try not to be that invested in the game (even though I put a lot of money into it, from the start of its creation) as not to be disappointed. But personally, I think it looks very promising even though it's taking a lot of time to make which I think is quite understandable when thinking about the size of the game. I do think it will pick up a lot of steam when the singleplayer is released.

[Chairman Meow]

I can't believe that people still give money to support this. I guess it's the sunk cost fallacy at work.

[OverdriveActive]

I'm on the sceptical side of this now. Mostly because of a few things:

1. I have no idea how they're going to pay for the ongoing running costs. Like, it feels like the donations and prepurchased ship money is just being spent on making the game. So they'll end up in debt when the game starts and then they're running effectively a full MMO infrastructure. There's plenty of companies that had better outlooks that died just because of the running costs of a venture like that.

2. The feature creep has been significant. I'm not even that invested and even I can see that the team over there seems to want to do "everything" in terms of simulation. I don't think it'll appeal to a whole lot of people. The people it will appeal to will not have deep enough pockets to keep it going.

3. I've watched quite a few hours of streams on Twitch trying to understand what it is people are doing in SC. There's definitely a group of dedicated people playing all the time. When I watch them I'm struck by now the gameplay isn't revolutionary. It doesn't feel like what it's bringing to the table can't already be found elsewhere. Let me qualify that a bit more by saying this:

- If you come to SC for the shooting aspect I don't think you give a heck about the flying simulation part
- If you come to SC for the flying simulation then you're unlikely to care about the shooter part
- If you come to SC for the space exploration then the above two might put you off
- If you come to SC for the realistic MMO parts, you may find yourself stifled by the intricacies of the game
- If you're somehow into all of these things and you like the nexus of them all in one then you're a bit of a rare breed

I feel like they're targeting a subsection of a subsection of a subsection of players at this point with the gameplay targets they have. It makes me very sceptical that on release it'll have what it needs to keep afloat and then beyond that, to keep it developed with new content and costs paid for.

I love the look of what they've created so far. I think they've achieved an amazing amount of graphical fidelity and their scaling systems are amazing. On a tech level, yes, this stuff is great. From a game perspective? I just can't see it being playable any time soon as it's not near tight enough gameplay wise to attract a significant audience. The other concerns just make me even more worried.

EDIT: As far as the funding thing goes, I don't even know what to think about that any more. I've heard so many different takes over the years and so many rumours that it's hard to have any feelings on it. If I was interested I'd play the game the way that people on Twitch do already. Since I'm not the game pretty much doesn't exist to me outside of the periodic scandal or post about how CIG / RSI is running out of money.

[Murray]

I can definitely see your point in terms of the game having too many aspects that might not appeal to everyone. That said, me personally, I wouldn't mind a game with all those features. I guess that makes me the rare breed.

It's got a lot of things going for it that looks like it could make it a really cool, new and interesting game but I just don't see them tieing it all together anytime soon. Like you said, it looks far from finished and I have a hard time believing the money they've gotten from crowdfunding will last them all the way.

[bob420]

I think Star Citizen has the potential to be one of the best games ever released. They still got a lot to do and making the development completely transparent was a mistake. They are getting hate from the community just because we can see all the dev process. It took time for them to get a good momentum, it definitely didn't help to have people pointing fingers at everything they are doing. A game like this take years if not a decade to make.

You should check out "Joueur du Grenier" a french YouTuber that is well respected gamer, he knows his stuffs and did a video on this very topic, and explains the whole situation in a unbiased way, which a lot of other youtubers couldn't with this game.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I4jteYSVTR8 this is an old video but explains the situation pretty well.

[Murray]

Uhh, I would have loved to hear a neutral take on it but I don't speak French. Sorry mate.

[ConspiracyLance]

Thanks for the suggestion mah dude! Going to watch that video and hopefully it gets subbed soon for those that can't understand french.

[Elmo]

Wow its raised so far as i type this message $211,071,262 and rising per second.

Is Roberts (based on Youtube videos I've seen) a bit of a visionary, but with slightly corrupt(might be understated?) business practises or is this game just on a journey that will one day be envisioned?

Will I live long enough to see this game released and will Roberts live long enough to see it through?

So many question so little time, the game seems like a Rabbit chasing a carrot that's on a string which is pulled away before the Rabbit can take it.

Maybe AAA companies are waiting for the right moment to buy out the game and take it over, but only when it's in a fit state. I think Roberts also hoping he's bought out, so he can retire on a few billion dollars and not have the responsibility, but I'm open minded to all things Star Citizen.

[2MyBalls]

I´m very sceptical about how Roberts handels the game development and business. No doubts, there are going some shady or just incompetent things going on with the company.

The game itself deserves a benefit of innocent until proven guilty. We will see.

[fenrif]

It's a great concept. And like all concepts it has limitless potential. However the company developing it seems skeezy as anything and I don't trust them to deliver. Even if they do manage to get the game out, stable and with the features they promise I have no faith that the buisness model wont be a corner stone for greed.

They should've just made the original game that was pitched. Focused on that first, then once it was solid and complete started working on the rest of it. Also I'm not sure the engine is a good choice for the type of game they want.

I was weary of it from the jump. Roberts may have made some of the greatest space sim games around with the Wing Commander series, but the movie (which he directed) was abysmal. Made me think it might be a case of him getting lucky while at Origin and relied on the team around him to turn his ideas into fun games.

[Chris Simon]

I´m very sceptical about how Roberts handels the game development and business. No doubts, there are going some shady or just incompetent things going on with the company.

The game itself deserves a benefit of innocent until proven guilty. We will see.

The problem is - the game has already been proven "guilty" - it's been repeatedly voted on as an "MMO with the worst monetization model" and that's even giving it more credit than it deserves as technically it's not even a game, yet.
I am big space sim nerd. So I watch this closely. But I haven't invested a penny into it, so I can afford being amused by Roberts' blunders.
I was optimistic for the first five years, but now, I'm just indifferent. The game will never see the light of day in the form it's presented and planned. At best it will be released at some point as unfinished as it is now, just with some actually gamey stuff in it to warrant the designation "game".
So far it's just an idea and promise. Very unrealistic one.

Naturally it doesn't really help that Roberts has zero organization and leadership skills. He's just a man with a dream and really bad ideas.

[PyroAmos]

I make fun of people when they say they gave star citizen money. LoL, good job paying a bunch of peoples paychecks for a few more months to make another trailer, hahaha.

[The_Mad_Manx]

I bought into the Kickstarter for both Elite Dangerous and Star Citizen. I'm happy with my ELITE support. I enjoy the game and they are adding features every few months. Star Citizen seems to dragging on and on in the quest for more and more money. Maybe someday there will actually be a game there but it's just a demo for the 3rd year in a row.

[MrE]

I'm a Star Citizen subscriber and concierge and been a backer for years. I also test every patch.

I'll try to answer as much as I can from what I know.

I have no idea how they're going to pay for the ongoing running costs.

They are going to sell in-game UEC (gold) with a monthly cap as well as additional NPC/Family character slots.

The feature creep has been significant.

The backing has also been significant and continues to earn more income and new backers. The biggest feature creep is mostly over now with 3.0 and beyond. I appreciate the feature creep now that the game is becoming what I have dreamed of.

I've watched quite a few hours of streams on Twitch trying to understand what it is people are doing in SC. There's definitely a group of dedicated people playing all the time. When I watch them I'm struck by now the gameplay isn't revolutionary. It doesn't feel like what it's bringing to the table can't already be found elsewhere. Let me qualify that a bit more by saying this:

- If you come to SC for the shooting aspect I don't think you give a heck about the flying simulation part
- If you come to SC for the flying simulation then you're unlikely to care about the shooter part
- If you come to SC for the space exploration then the above two might put you off
- If you come to SC for the realistic MMO parts, you may find yourself stifled by the intricacies of the game
- If you're somehow into all of these things and you like the nexus of them all in one then you're a bit of a rare breed

It's not so much about "new emergent game-play" as much as it is about "immersive game-play". Many things are old, but many things are also new, like flying from planet to planet, jumping out of your ship, grabbing your gun and doing an FPS mission seamlessly. Just like you said, a person can choose how they play SC weather it be FPS, simulation, house building, role playing etc. Most things you can avoid... for example, if you haste FPS and just want to explore in your ship, you can do that, but with a game like this, you will need to be prepared for AI pirates or PvP from time to time. It is, after all, a game set in a dangerous universe.

But I suppose that I am a rare breed.... I like how this can all come together into one experience. Like a real space cowboy stopping off at a dirty space truck stop and getting a lead on a rare item. Flying to the item's location and shooting up a place to get it - flying away just in the nick of time to another star system where an interested buyer is waiting. Or playing as a fighter ace. Or just role playing in one of the big cities. Or finding a bit of land on a planet and building a house. Or .... or .... etc

Nothing will ever make people happy all of the time in this game, but I personally think that Star Citizen will let you choose MOST of the time how you spend your time in the game.

Shameless plug: New backer referral code: STAR-5N9Z-565P (gets you 5000 UEC)

[Polinin]

My understanding is that Star Citizen's biggest problem is that there's nobody to tell Roberts no. He's apparently a perfectionist and keeps tying things up until they're exactly the way he wants them - before he changes his mind and pushes things through the exact same process. "Meddling execs" take a lot of flak(often deservedly so), but sometimes they can be the most important people on the project.

[OverdriveActive]

I'm a Star Citizen subscriber and concierge and been a backer for years. I also test every patch.

I'll try to answer as much as I can from what I know.

Originally posted by OverdriveActive View Post
I have no idea how they're going to pay for the ongoing running costs.

They are going to sell in-game UEC (gold) with a monthly cap as well as additional NPC/Family character slots.
<snip>

Thanks for providing your perspective as someone on the inside I understand the promise of the whole venture and certainly the ambition is there. Like you said, the backing in terms of finances has also been there so there's something to be said for the viability from that angle. One bit of nuance: my comment about "I have no idea how they're going to pay for ongoing costs" was more aimed at something other than what you answered. I meant that more as this:

I presume that this game world will need to attract several million players to maintain ciritical mass in popularity and desirability as a gameplay experience. Not unlike most MMOs with a world and mechanics of similar scale. I don't believe the whales will keep the infrastructure needed for that going on their own. The costs will run in the millions per month. How will they convince normal players to drop enough money on a regular basis to account for that along with being able to pay for ongoing development? The current crop of macro/microtransactions surely won't cover it, not with the current PC gamer climate and cooling attitudes towards the practice. I worry that they will simply need too much on a per capita basis to make it profitable long term and will fail not for their lack of whales but for their inability to fill out the remainder of the game with players. I fear this will lead to anti-consumer practices that will tar the game. SC is already on a razor's edge with what they've done but so far I feel most people simply feel it's out of their reach and hope that the overall game design won't resign them to peasants forever. Just for a little while.

I'm personally perfectly fine with people spending dozens / hundreds of thousands on a game to support its development. How these people are handled once in-game is to be seen but I'm open to the idea that it'll work out if RSI is invested in making the experience meaningful for everyone. To get back to the point, I'm assuming the whales in SC don't want to play alone. They want to get positive feedback on their purchases from people that don't have the same amount of money around. That's kind of how that psych profile works. So SC is in a place where they have to convince a few hundred or even a few thousand people to be around these whales and then convince them to pay the difference to keep the game going with significant regularity. I'm not sure that works for the nexus of players that SC is aiming for.

Black Desert Online is a good example of a game with significant whales in it. However, this game is very arcadey, has a very accessible universe, sits smack dab in the middle of a thematic hotbed (fantasy RPG) and does very well to capitalize on things like eyecandy and gameplay elements that everyone from age 14 through to 140 can enjoy. I don't see SC doing this. In addition, my considerable experience playing persistent MMOs and games that generally run a long time inhabited by "virtual citizens" tells me that much of what the majority of those players want to do is this progression:

- Start game
- Go through some form of "levelling" or achieving endgame
- Gain proficiency in a role / class / playstyle to the point where much of it is automatic
- Perform rote and grindable content that requires low mindfulness, utilizing this proficiency
- Incidentally perform difficult content, by choice
- From here, keep up with content as it comes out and do the difficult content as and when or on a schedule with a social group
- Create new characters, do same

This is the MMO population summed up in terms of gameplay experiences they seek out. Many of them also play other games but if you're looking for a large group of players to squeeze for a regular amount of money, they're the ones that are happy to pay subscriptions for premium experiences and pay for macrotransactions as they're now very accustomed to them. They also know how to value premium purchases which means strong value propositions like the ones SC proposes for its ships work well for them.

However, the big thing here is the "gain proficiency in a role ..." bit. With SC streamers I notice that they regularly wonder how to do things. They can't find the door on a vehicle, can't find an in-game toggle in a cockpit to do something, don't know how to perform certain tasks. They enjoy this bit because it means they have to engage their real-world brains to complete these tasks. In that way they're much like the simulation audience. The ones that sit down in a train simulator and will spend the time to figure out what all the buttons, dials, levers and gauges mean on a number of trains. Thing is, the MMO audience really doesn't want any of that. They want smooth experiences that abstract and simplify the real world. Systems and stats can still be complex but 40 hours in they expect to be pretty much familiar with their chosen class / role / job and get on with things. For them, unfamiliarity being introduced in a familiar setting leads to frustration. It's not fun for them to keep learning how to do stuff. This is what I mean by arcadey. A capped ceiling of simulation that, after a set number of hours, means you pretty much know what to do no matter what. Example: combat ability rotations.

You may argue that the MMO audience then simply isn't a target. I considered this but I've been wracking my brain and I can't think of another group of people that could possible be a viably target for SC. Some groups I can think of are Mobile gamers, Singleplayer, MOBA players, Competitive FPS players - none of these are significant targets for the size of world and depth of systems that SC presents. But each of these represents a significant group of the gameplaying population. It would take a significant conversion on any of those players' part to stick around and pay regularly to bankroll SC. I think you see where I'm coming from and I feel like I'm rambling now.

This kind of brings us back to the list I proposed. The players that are likely targeted to make up the majority of the playerbase need to be provided an accessible gameplay experience that doesn't bog them down with simulation. Last I checked, SC was not very friendly to the general player while being amazing for anyone that's dedicated and motivated. Perhaps SC is doing a lot in this regard and I'm not aware. Would love to hear your take on this.

NOTE: On the preview prior to posting this I noticed that perhaps I'm underestimating the size of the simulation audience. There certainly are a lot of people playing the World of Tanks|Warplanes|Warships / War Thunder / Farm|Flight|Truck Simulator games. I reckon they share more gamer DNA with SC natives so if you can convince someone to ditch their farm and become a space privateer perhaps that can cover the lot?

[Damian Cunliffe]

I remember being quite excited for this game a few years ago. I've always loved space (everyone loves space, right?), and the thought of having a kind of EVE Online except you can directly fly the ships, land on planets, dock at stations and basically live a life in a space based MMORPG... a game like that would be like crack to me.

At a certain point though it just seemed that there was no end in sight. Every time a goal is being worked towards, new funding records are hit and so new goals are announced. That's still going on right now.

*Captain Hindsight mode activated*

They should've finished the original game as they envisioned it, then added to it later in the form of expansions and downloadable content after the full game (as envisioned at the beginning of the project) had been released!

*Captain Hindsight mode deactivated*